Sunday, April 18. 2010A Difficult Problem To Solve........John Linton .....because modern education, parenting and societal (if that is the correct word in this particular instance) influences create the scenario of the lawlessness in which the planet is being engulfed. It doesn't matter whether its corrupt politicians, corrupt police, corrupt businessmen/women, bikie gangs manufacturing drugs, suicide bombers, drunken driving or 10 year olds downloading copyright material from their parents computer we live in a milieu where most people are criminals and are vociferous in expounding their 'rights' to carry out their illegal activities for no other reason than they can get away with doing so. This article: pretty much sums up where on line piracy sadly 'stands' in the litany of lawlessness across the planet. I have no business view on how to deal with on line theft - Exetel will do whatever any State or Federal legislation requires it to do from time to time and will otherwise act in its own commercial best interests. Personally I think, because I was brought up in a more ethical society than exists today in Australia which still had caring parents and ethical schools and teachers, breaking any society's laws is wrong if you live in that society and that people who do so are menaces to the societies in which they live. I was saddened by this article because it defines the real problems of living in today's world - the law makers are not the problem (personally corrupt as they may well be in their other activities). It is the actual societies they attempt to legislate for that are the problem. It appears from what was written that even though the 'government of the land' pass legislation there remains a society that is not intending to comply with it irrespective of the clearly delineated moral and ethical basis for delineating the legal situation.I suppose it will eventually work itself out over the next year or so but it may well be the case that Western methods of government have passed their use by date with law making becoming an esoteric process carried out in irrelevant assemblies that are basically unknown, and irrelevant, to the populations that they are responsible for governing. Is there any moral/ethical difference between a 15 year old suicide bomber and a 15 year old illegal down loader? They both have been 'conditioned' by their parents, schooling and the societies in which they live to believe that the actions they are about to take are what they should do. Neither considers that, on the one hand the lives of people they have never met and they are about to end are of any importance and on the other hand that the lives of people they have never met who will no longer be employed manufacturing and distributing the material they casually steal are of any importance. You think that's an inappropriate comparison? Well....can you see any point between the two that are not directly apposite. Neither the 15 year old suicide bomber nor the 15 year old illegal down loader would do what they do if they had better parents, better schooling and lived in a less lawless society. As the moral/ethical base of any society is developed over multiple generations there will be no change to the current situation in France and England based on some new law - you can't engineer societal change through legislation. Undoubtedly another family today will be devastated by the loss of a family member killed on an Australian road by some drunken slob who decided laws on alcohol consumption don't apply to them - because they can drink to excess and then get in their car/truck and drive somewhere. Doubtless some bunch of hoons in some location in every major city in Australian will be cooking up their latest batch of crystal meth or unpacking their latest shipment of heroin/whatever to ensure more young people destroy their lives before they are 30 - because they can get away with it despite all the laws and police anti drug "task forces". We live in a lawless society that, because of the overwhelming number of examples from all sorts of people over the full spectra of today's societies, will continue to become more lawless and more anti-social. Any society can only change when the majority of any society act to bring about change, not via law making, but by personal example. Today in Australia when you watch some news media lamenting the latest tragic event caused by drugs, alcohol, or just crass selfishness remember that your personal actions in ignoring the rights of your fellow planet inhabitants mean that, possibly, one day some deluded young suicide bomber will choose to end his/her addle brained life within lethal distance of you. Hopefully, as your lights go out for the last time, you will reconsider whether all that illegal material you downloaded and encouraged other people to download was worth it. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6........
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It would be wonderful if we lived in a world of morally and ethical people everywhere. Unfortunately we don't and as you would know John that most business's are corrupt or corruptible. It usually comes down to money and which side of that line that will make more. To compare someone who downloads a tv show as the same as a suicide bomber is going a little extreme. Each of us has to find that morally and ethical line where we see it. The world is made of very different view points and people and I guess we would all like everyone to see it the same way as you do and I do.
Comment (1)
The comparison between illegal down loading and suicide bombing is exact - in that neither would happen if parenting and schooling, together with societal influences, were at some reasonable moral and ethical standards.
If you find a child 'offender' you only to look at the parenting and schooling to see why the innate human genetics of aggressive self interest were not sensibly modified in to civilised and productive activities. Australian society currently produces compulsive thieves and drug distributors as well as alcohol abusers with all the anti-social outcomes of generations of declining values make inevitable. Poorer societies produce suicide bombers for the same reasons - there is no difference......quite possibly the suicide bomber does less damage to individuals and societies. Comments (12)
JL, you raise an important question on morals & ethics and how one is raised in today's world and the impact each of us have on society as we carry ourselves on a daily basis.
You have made a clear statement that you were raised in a more ethical way than the way you see society living today in Australia. I for one, highly doubt anyone can say they have the ethical & moral basis to life which has shielded them from any form of wrong doing in today's day and age. Nobody is perfect, nobody! There are of course levels to what we class as right & wrong and through the way we were raised will be in some way carried into our future lives. JL, maybe you wear a halo and are the perfectly moral & ethical person in your own eyes. Have you ever participated in any of the following? Prior to the world of online piracy and theft. - Record any TV Shows & Movies with your VCR - Accept or copy Cassettes & CD's that were not purchased initially Would you ever? - Download a TV show/series/sports not shown in our parts of the world - Download a CD which is no longer a pressed release and cannot be obtained via "ethical" methods All points above are illegal, though, through the changes in our technological world and impact of these changes in society, we now have access to a world library of information. Maybe the lawmakers need to hit who they see as abusers with clear messages, you download and get caught, you will be fined. Set clear guidelines for the online world to follow and if they are unable to do this, we will have big divides between right & wrong. Comments (2)
Firstly, my inability to express myself clearly has allowed you to form a completely wrong view of what I was trying to say.
My comment was that I grew up in a far more moral and ethical society with better general parenting and schooling which resulted in the vast majority of the population adhering to far higher standards than are prevalent today. It was not a statement about my personal standards. And, no, I have never done any of the things you mention. Comments (12)
"Is there any moral/ethical difference between a 15 year old suicide bomber and a 15 year old illegal down loader?"
Perhaps a more exact comparison is to compare an illegal downloader with an illegal cloner of humans. Comment (1)
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2003/01/01/five_wars_of_globalization
a great article on the five wars of globalization : Five Wars of Globalization The illegal trade in drugs, arms, intellectual property, people, and money is booming. Like the war on terrorism, the fight to control these illicit markets pits governments against agile, stateless, and resourceful networks empowered by globalization. Governments will continue to lose these wars until they adopt new strategies to deal with a larger, unprecedented struggle that now shapes the world as much as confrontations between nation-states once did BY MOISÉS NAÍM | JANUARY 1, 2003 The persistence of al Qaeda underscores how hard it is for governments to stamp out stateless, decentralized networks that move freely, quickly, and stealthily across national borders to engage in terror. The intense media coverage devoted to the war on terrorism, however, obscures five other similar global wars that pit governments against agile, well-financed networks of highly dedicated individuals. These are the fights against the illegal international trade in drugs, arms, intellectual property, people, and money. Religious zeal or political goals drive terrorists, but the promise of enormous financial gain motivates those who battle governments in these five wars. Tragically, profit is no less a motivator for murder, mayhem, and global insecurity than religious fanaticism. Ps morals change by generation as the world changes. Eg women voting, stolen generation, climate change etc etc cheers rf Comment (1)
Is there actually such a thing as "Al Quaeda"? I would seriously doubt it...it's simply a convenient 'label' to brow beat Western countries populations with by dishonest governments.
As for your examples - none of them relate to changing morals or ethics - they are examples of political movements. Crime evolution which you allude to is a constant and is difficult. But my comments were on something National (not international) and far more prosaic - the decline in parenting skills and the decline in teaching skills and caring. Comments (12)
It seems the biggest problem in modern society, as through all of time is that people do not have a basic knowledge of history except for a few names and dates and thus think all problems only occurred from the point they comes to their attention.
Copyright Infringement Copyright infringement has existed since man put quill to parchment but as a modern crime has only existed since the late 1850's the following two articles deal with many of the issues that still plague the world most interestingly the fact that almost all copies of Charles Dickens works sold in the united states during his lifetime were in effect pirated copies, allowed by a US government that did not want to support foreign authors at the cost of its own printing industry. see the following two links for information on historic copyright issues in the US and Britain http://www.enotes.com/major-acts-congress/copyright-act http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/pva/pva74.html Terrorism Your view equating terrorism to a decay in the moral fabric of society is silly many terrorists come from good, well established families in many cases with no history of crime. In most cases terrorists come from close nit communities encompassing middle lower and upper class backgrounds. Terrorists of all kinds whether suicide bombers or hostage takers see themselves as soldiers fighting for a cause there no criminal justification necessary also most terrorist leader are well educated and often come from rich backgrounds and are often university educated Drink driving Has existed since man connected horse to cart blaming that on anything in modern society does not make sense. Modern Parenting going back to the post world war one era you can find information and opinions claiming year on year each new generation is being brought up in a way that will destroy the moral and ethical fabric of society A simple challenge to anyone in this world is to find a current widespread problem that didn't exsist in some form or another during the last few centuries So 2010 is the end of civilization just as every year has been, as those of the older generation look at the past with rose tinted glasses and compare it to the present they only see through what they choose to read and accept as truth and our understanding of the issues that plagued the past is simplified and regurgitated as a few key names and places Comment (1)
Sigh.....
1) Learn to read what is written by getting an understanding of grammar, syntax and word usage. 2) Once you can understand how to read what is written take a sensible course on logic. 3) Try not to write sub juvenile nonsense it bores the reader and does no credit to the writer. 4) Do yourself a favour and don't bother reading my poorly constructed random thoughts - they are completely beyond your comprehension. Comments (12)
Perhaps the commenter about 'have you ever' could have asked about commiting any civil offense. Who hasn't!
You're comparing a criminal case with a civil case. Criminal laws exist to allow people to live in a safe and secure environment free from physical harm. Civil laws exist to govern rules between individuals. I do agree that if I were always to choose the path of least suffering and consider all individuals involved, and the consequeces of my actions, I would change them. But I'm not perfect, just a selfish human like everyone else. I like to imagine that actions are neither right or wrong, they are just actions. Morals change on individual basis and over time. They also put things into categories and black and white. Morals for some can mean it's right to kill a killer. I personally disagree, and thankfully I don't live in a society with those laws. I'm happy to be in a society that has rules, actions and consequences. Australian society decided that littering isn't a criminal offence, nor is riding a push bike through a red light. I did ride through a red light and got my $150 fine. Similarly I run the risk of paying a fine for copyright infringements through actions I may take. Comment (1)
I'm not comparing a civil case with a criminal case at all..
I was trying to point out that some lack of parenting skills brings up a suicide bomber and another brings up an illegal downloader. Both cases destroy the lives of people they don't know. There is no difference between the two. Neither gives a damn about destroying other people's lives for their own selfish purposes. Comments (12)
Fine thing you talking about ethics after what you did when you ran iGreen and Swiftel and One.Tel.
Comment (1)
What a stupid ,little, and pig ignorant person you are and how so completely uninformed and just plain 100% wrong.
1) I never was a director of any of those three companies. 2) I was never an employee of those three companies. 3) I never held any sort of senior management nor any 'financial control' position and certainly never any decision making position and never made any decisions for any of those companies. 4) I did an 11 month consulting job for Swiftel in the 4th or 5th year of its operation on an unrelated scenario to their core business. All decisions were made by the directos and the CEO Chris Gale before, during and after I did my non-core business consulting job. 5) I did a 14 month consulting job for Apple/iGreen on a completely non-core project and made absolutely no decisions for that company that was controlled by its three owner/directors and its Chairman/shareholder who made every decision about its business directions and strategies. 6) I did three separate consulting jobs for One.Tel (6 months, 9 months and 12 months) on three different aspects of their non-core businesses and was never involved in any aspect of any decision taken about their core businesses which was exclusively done by Jodee Rich and Brad Keeling and with the final agreement of James and Kerry Packer and the Murdochs. Perhaps you should learn some elementary facts about this industry before opening your mouth and proving you are a poisonous tongued, know nothing moron. Comments (12)
There is no denying that we have become more selfish then previous generations, and most people believe they have rights that they do not.
Could part of our lawlessness be due to laws which the majority of citizens do not agree with. We have laws granting artists copyright for their lifetime + 70 years. Most of us are jealous and would love to still be getting money for work we performed decades ago. The majority perception is that artists and their record companies/Movie studios/Publishers are making far too much money for the effort exerted. So people figure that stealing this work does not affect anyone. As a democracy we should be pushing to have laws changed to reflect the mood of the majority of citizens. If Artists earning were more in line with the general population, people would have more respect for them and less likely to steal. Following on from this and using your comparison, I would hope the majority of citizens believe that suicide bombing is not something that should be legalised. If not then we have bigger things to worry about... Comment (1)
Peter, the issue is that illegal down loaders destroy far more people's lives than suicide bombers do - and for the same reason - uncaring selfishness.
Comments (12)
We live in a democracy correct? Shouldn't the laws reflect the will of the people, rather than be dictated by a small group of "elitists"? Gay marriage was once illegal but times have changed.
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It would be difficult to demonstrate that Australia has ever been, or is ever likely to be a democracy.
Irrespective of that - no society can survive that allows theft and murder, among many other anti-societal behaviours to occur. However, I was only commenting that antu-social behaviour is a result of poor parenting and poorer education. The example of illegal downloading (I can steal so I will) is simply one example of parents and schools that failed for the individual that steals and therefore destroys other people's lives because of the way they were brought up. Suicide bomber/illegal down loader - they both destroy other people's lives out of their criminal selfishness. Comments (12)
To simply clump all crimes (or most) together and simply say that the reason they occur is people can get away with it or think they can get away with it is just way too simplistic. Of course being able to get away with their crime will be part of their thinking but its only a part. There a numerous other factors which drive people to crime. (These as you have identified are largely social factors such as parenting, schooling and opportunities they have)
However, to associate suicide bombing with downloading music because they are both related to a general decline in social moral and ethical values is not only extreme but untrue. Sure the rise in terrorism and illegal music activity may be related but not for the reasons you have stated. I think one may argue that changing technology is responsible for the connection between the two. 1)Technology has allowed terrorists to form complex networks around the world and distribute powerful propaganda material which is responsible for the increases such violence or attempts at such violence in the western world. (see generation jihad program on bbc for interesting perspective on this) Off course in acts of terrorism in middle east are due to complex political/religious and social issues which I don't think anyone can meaningfully connect with downloading music. 2) I don't think i need to explain how technology is responsible for increases in music downloads . But i think you should check this article http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2848297.htm?site=kimberley I think it makes an very interesting and valid point about how technology has changed the world substantially but we fail to acknowledge this change and change our principles and the way we work accordingly. Comments (3)
Children raised in homes, schools and societies without morals or ethics result in uncivilised (in the correct sense of that word)adults and uncontrollable teens.
The link between suicide bombers and illegal downloaders was made because both destroy the lives of people they have never met because of their parental lacks and their uncivilised self gratification. There actually is NO difference between a suicide bomber and an illegal down loader - they both wantonly destroy other people and society would be better off without them or the parents that allowed them to become the people they are. Comments (12)
I think you place unfair blame on parents on both counts particularly the suicide bomber point. But i think that's going offtopic.
But i must say that when you say there's no difference between suicide bombers and an illegal downloader your coming across as a troll. (If that was posted by someone whom i didn't know anything else about i would definitely think they wre just trolling) Why? Because clearly that comparisons is not just wrong but its very wrong. Its an issue of proportionality to begin with. If we look closely at the "damage" done by illegal downloading this "damage" is also done by musicians bypassing the music industry and realeasing music by themsele often for free. (e.g cotton eyejoe). What this demonstrates is the simple fact that ll actions have a cost (and most have a benefit) and your simply saying look suicide bombing and illegal downloading have a cost so we should morally and ethically view them the same. Comments (3)
The problem with people, like you, who try to reduce your guilt in taking actons which destroy other people's lives (you via your keyboard - suicide bombers by explosives) is that your parents never ensured you understood right from wrong and your schooling never taught you to comprehend the scope of your actions.
You destroy other people's lives just as a suicide bomer destroys lives - because you are an amoral self centred and hopelessly addle brained person. Make no mistake that people have died because of your actions and not only don't you give a damn but you try and defend your actions with your infantile pulings....instead of understanding the result of your selfishness. Comments (12)
John, I understand how illegal downloading has trashed a few corporate business models, but could you please give an example of how illegal downloading has "destroyed lives"?
Comment (1)
Sure.
CDs and DVDs are overwhelmingly made in very poor third world countries. When a CD/DVD production line is closed the people working there seldom find another job. Their lives are destroyed. Illegal down loaders keep illegally downloading to satisfy their illegal, selfish, thoughtless and amoral lifestyle - who gives a damn about the lives they destroy - certainly not them.....pretty much like a suicide bomber. Comments (12)
Hi John,
Interesting thought process. Extending on your logic, what percentage of Exetel's ADSL data usage would be for illegal downloads? 70 per cent? 80 per cent? Even though you are providing a legal service, do you have an ethical problem with profiting from such actions? Would it be fair to equate Exetel as the guy selling the plastic explosives to the terrorists, knowing that many of the buyers will blow up a school bus? Comments (2)
Hi John,
I see that Exetel now offer unlimited downloads to most customers, off-peak. You must know that on top of your already generous data allowances, these downloads will be used almost exclusively for illegal content? How are you not a big part of the problem, and how do you align this marketing initiative with your moral position? I'm really interested in your response, as I really dislike the move towards uncapped plans, and the likely bandwidth impact on legitimate users, especially in non-peak periods. Comments (2)
" The fact that I oppose such in my capacity as a private citizen/voter has no bearing on following my private views to the detriment of Exetel's commercial operations.?JL
Comment (1)
"Is there any moral/ethical difference between a 15 year old suicide bomber and a 15 year old illegal down loader? They both have been 'conditioned' by their parents, schooling and the societies in which they live to believe that the actions they are about to take are what they should do. Neither considers that, on the one hand the lives of people they have never met and they are about to end are of any importance and on the other hand that the lives of people they have never met who will no longer be employed manufacturing and distributing the material they casually steal are of any importance. You think that's an inappropriate comparison? Well....can you see any point between the two that are not directly apposite. Neither the 15 year old suicide bomber nor the 15 year old illegal down loader would do what they do if they had better parents, better schooling and lived in a less lawless society."
There's a big difference in the outcome of a single 15yo suicide bomber vs a 15yo illegal 'downloader'. A single 15yo suicide bomber's actions would result in death or injuries to numerous people A single 15yo illegal 'downloader' will not end anyones life or injure anyone. Their impact will likely negatively impact no one. If a group of people download illegal material then yes in the end it will likely mean loss of jobs and income, but I still don't find it a fair comparison in terms of outcome. I would also consider that not all laws can be thought of as being morally and ethically correct - so as a result you can't base an argument on something just because it's a law and therefore is the right thing. In some cultures it's considered ok to rape women and if they complain to police they may be executed - that doesn't mean that someone over there who thinks it's wrong to be raped should have had 'better schooling and better parents'. I totally agree with these statements though; 'As the moral/ethical base of any society is developed over multiple generations there will be no change to the current situation in France and England based on some new law - you can't engineer societal change through legislation. ' 'Any society can only change when the majority of any society act to bring about change, not via law making, but by personal example' Comment (1)
There is no difference.
Selfish, amoral, criminal 15 year olds whose parents have abrogated the responsibilities of parents don't give a damn about who their illegal and criminal activities hurt - they are simply human dross. The world's communities would be better off without them and their parents and their self centred lives. Comments (12)
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