Thursday, April 2. 2009Is The Lunatic Fringe Getting Longer?John Linton I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry when I received this 'suggestion' from the User Facility Suggestion Box earlier this morning: I realise that I'm absolutely not the right person to reply to this sort of nonsense but as it came via the user suggestion process (rather than the complaints or billing resolution process) I read it as I do all suggestions. The suggestion box has been a major success in its first month of operation and we have made over 100 changes to various aspects of our processes already based on user suggestions. - but what on Earth do you do with communications such as this? "Dear Exetel Support, I\'m really ANNOYED, here\'s why: Last month, due to no fault of my own, I had the unfortunate experience of having to cancel my credit card. While my other accounts associated with the credit card (insurance, web hosting ...) all accepted the new credit card details. Exetel did not! I finally got online again using my mother in-laws mastercard and after spending an extra $30.00 in failed transaction payments. I decided it must be a problem with my credit card, and called the bank. The bank said their transaction records indicate that the wrong (visa) verification number (3 digit on back) was used for both my card and my wife\'s. Obviously we didn\'t make a mistake typing the three digit verification number. Rather Exetel\'s payment page has some fundamental error/bug processing visa cards (The page has spelling errors also). Because of Exetel\'s problem/bug processing visa cards, I\'m now down $40 (including the most recent failure fee). If I don\'t receive a full refund of my $40 and re-connection to the internet. I WILL take my business elsewhere, never recommend Exetel to my friends again, blog about this issue on Whirlpool, Twitter, blogger, and any other online blog I can find. Please contact me on 0415nnnnnn to resolve this issue." If I was to accept the claim that Exetel's key financial processing systems have random bugs in them then we are in serious trouble in continuing to operate the company. Can a system that has processed hundreds of thousands of transactions (apparently accurately as we have never received such a complaint before) suddenly have developed a strange inconsistency on a single occasion? I would have thought that unlikely to the point of dismissing it completely after a few seconds thought (bearing in mind we use the software supplied by the bank to their multitude of customers - we don't write it ourselves) as to how it could have happened. - which is what I did. How do you deal with a person who is so irrational as to make such a claim - and why on Earth would they do it? Is it actually possible that they believe such a thing is possible rather than the much more obvious explanation? If the last paragraph had been omitted (the silly threats) then I would have replied differently to the way I actually did. I have an absolute inability, developed when I was in my very early teens, to deal with someone who threatens me in any way other than to act as as unreasonably and as inappropriately as they do - I should have grown out of that with the onset of adult maturity but clearly I have still not reached that stage - yet. I do wonder why an increasing number of people I observe (not only in Exetel's business dealings but in restaurants, shops, service stations and, of course, driving on so many roads around Sydney) behave so irrationally aggressively and so completely stupidly. In this instance how could this person actually believe that a financial processing system (written by a major bank) is more likely to make four successive random errors at different times than his own fingers? Even if he (and it was a he) could believe that why would his first communication be phrased so ridiculously confrontationally? What sort of reply did he expect to receive? Without the stupid threats I would have replied that while I believed a key Exetel financial process (written by a major Australian bank) could not have randomly mis-recorded a key stroke four times in succession from one customer but not from any other customer over a period of almost 5 years we would waive the failed debit charges. However, his sheer stupidity coupled with his silly 'threats' caused me to reply differently: "Dear Sir, While it is easy to understand your annoyance you are directing it towards the wrong entity. Your, silly, claim that "obviously we didn't make a mistake typing the three digit verification number" should have read "obviously WE MADE A MISTAKE..." Because: If "Exetel's payment page has some fundamental error/bug...." it would seem to need some explanation as to why only you have encountered this ridiculous situation whereas over 100,000 other people who have entered their credit card details over the past years have not. Lastly your silly statements about the actions you will take if we don't agree with your ridiculous assertion are not going to find any sympathy with a supplier who realizes that you have made a careless error and to save face with your wife are asserting that our very carefully constructed and audited financial processing systems contain such a ridiculous flaw as you are stating. But that begs the question you raise about how dangerous it is for you to do business with an organization that operates seriously flawed financial systems. What would happen in future months if other flaws in our systems disadvantage you even further? You can't possibly allow that to happen and therefore you should immediately move your ADSL service to another provider and, good citizen that you are, you should invest even more of your time warning as many people as possible of Exetel's criminally negligent and dishonest financial systems. Be careful what you assert in writing because your comments in your email are, prima face, total nonsense and to repeat them in public is a very serious denigration of a commercial entity - and I would think that any other person who reads your comments will form the same view that I have. As Exetel is clearly not a suitable company for you to deal with, this email is to advise you that you should move your Exetel ADSL1 service to another provider before mid night on April 30th 2009 after which time Exetel will cancel your connection. Although the fault of entering incorrect information is, without doubt, entirely yours Exetel will not charge any failed debit fees. Exetel will not impose any early contract cancellation fees. We wish you more success with the financial processing systems of your next service provider and hope that they are not as seriously flawed as you accuse Exetel's of being." It seems to me that there are more loonies around than there used to be. PS: (7.20 am April 3rd) I have been advised that this customer claims on another forum that he is being mis-represented because "I have chosen not to show his earlier correspondence". Like his other comments that is simply untrue. There was "an earlier" email (by approximately 5 minutes) to the suggestion box but the only difference was that it used the words "pissed off" instead of "angry" in the first sentence and was replied to (by me) with the comment that we don't deal with inappropriately worded correspondence". A minute or so later the version refenced in this post was sent. If any correspondence exists beyond that then no-one at Exetel has ever seen it. Trackbacks
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Funny you should mention this because I changed my Credit Card details on your website yesterday with no problem... however there is one point I wish to make about the emailers comment above... he states "that the wrong (visa) verification number (3 digit on back) was used for both my card and my wife\'s."
I just went back again today to your change CC detail screen because I remembered thinking to myself yesterday.. strange they don't ask for the security number, maybe it's not needed.... It's not there on your webpage, it's not a field you even ask for!! Now I'm not sure how you the bank could get this number wrong if they don't even ask for it in the first place! Comments (2)
That's what I remember as well.
Regardless, you're not allowed to store the CVV anyway. Comments (5)
Thank you for pointing that out - before I replied initially I double checked that our data base doesn't store the security code - it can only be entered by the customer in the live payment portal.
I was subsequently told that it is illegal to store the security number which is why none of our customer records have a field to enter the number. Only the 'live pay' portal has the field and therefore only the customer could have made an error entering the number. As he insists he did it multiple times he must have now worked out what he did wrong (assuming that the problem was as he describes it). His surname is Scandinavian and Larry suggested that he entered the number while the keyboard was in "Scandinavian mode" which might well account for an unrecognisable character being sent. Then again he wouldn't be the first person not to notice his keypad wasn't on 'num lock! Comments (11)
Your competitors would do well to follow your example.
For example, TPG store the CVV. On that basis their bank shouldn't actually allow them to transact given they're in direct violation of PCI DSS. On that subject, Exetel should be in good shape when PCI DSS compliance is pushed onto ISPs and telcos over the next 12 months. Your automation of process should make meeting the criteria fairly straightforward. Comments (5)
I like the threat of "any other blog he can find". I kinda like the idea of him trawling cupcake decorating and yak hair spinning blogs to rant about Exetel.
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Ok... I took up the challenge...
http://www.knittinghelp.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-40143.html was the best I could find on yak hair spinning. Comments (2)
I suspect he'll get there soon enough, he needs to finish looking for sympathy on Whirlpool first http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1174272
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you can smell the fear in lot of people now.
whats with the \'? Comment (1)
I think that the back-slashes before apostrophes are from Exetel's scripts that prevent MySQL injection through their suggestion box text fields.
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I needed a good laugh for the day. Thankyou
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Perhaps he is somehow caught up in a problem with the 'Verified by Visa" scheme; which always seems temperamental to me.
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Does Exetel actually implement that though?
Even when VbV/MasterCode is used, it is up to the merchant as to whether or not they complete the transaction if the process fails. Comments (5)
he must be proud, really taught you a lesson good luck finding another ISP with the same value
what is it they say, better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt Comments (3)
It seems very odd that a person would not understand that if they are keying in a number themselves that any error in recording that number must be theirs.
I suppose data transmission errors can occur once in many trillion transactions but why a person would think that it could occur on four successive occasions when they are keying in a number is beyond all rational thought processes. Why someone should believe that the appropriate way to communicate their experience in such circumstances by a series of immoderate threats defies any sort of interlocution I have ever seen from a rational person. Like the road rage I observed driving to work last week when a driver got so incensed by being cut off he rammed the car that did it - just stupid - and expensive. Comments (11)
Hi There, Mr Linton.
Please forgive my brother for his quick temper and inability to admit he's wrong. I truly love him and mean no malice in writing this. I too suffer from this infliction where I am so blinded by my own pride I find it impossible to admit I was wrong, maybe its in the genes maybe Freud was right and we didnt get enough love from our mother, I dont know how to explain it but I know I have it. I am personally on a journey of self discovery and reading the above has taught me a little about myself. He does mean well (maybe not in this case) and I want you to know how good of a customer of your he has been. For the last 5 years he has convinced me of how good the value is from your company and he has personally (probably unbeknown to you) convinced many others to change over. I have a degree in marketing and believe me this kind of customer is hard to find, this probably leads to his believing Exetel actually owes him something, not just for loyalty, but for all the recommendations he had made to others. I believe all relationships are repairable a fact I have proven over and again in my career in sales. Paul had emailed me just last month telling me how to join EXETEL and I to date have failed to act on this till now. From the above readings I realise you are a person of intelligence and propriety, I implore on the later...Take him back, or at least offer him the chance, based on the kind words of his brother and sign me up too, the best revenge is always sweeter when the reciever pays (literally!). I see this as a positive way forward, and I feel for my brother, he really is a nice guy. If he fails to respond, he could never honestly say another bad word about Exetel, after all you were the bigger man. I'll still join, because I taught myself to admit my faults, I wont be sending you complaints such as this. I have not mentioned this to my brother, we live some 2000ks apart, and I would prefer you moderated my comments to nil, at the least take out the bits where I knock him in case he reads it. I look forward to your reply, Regards, (name given and edited for anonymity) Comment (1)
Thank you for taking the time to make those points. I can't edit your comments and allow an edited version to be published as you might realise and I have no way of responding to you other than on this section of the blog.
I have removed the automatic cancellation so it's up to your brother to choose whether he leaves or not. Comments (11)
I like that response! I don't see it as a problem, because he did make the threats anyway.
The theory must be - if they use threats to get their own way once, they'll do it again, and again.. Expecting their outcome. Take them to task on the threat, or help them complete the threat - great! Comments (2)
It seems to me that a growing number of people think that threats and loud voices are the best way to approach issues.
I really don't understand how this attitude is developing in Australia. The customer isn't always right - in this case, as with so many others, the customer is totally wrong. Comments (11)
I refer to it as ACA syndrome, ACA being for A Current Affair where lots of reasonable people have been brainwashed with the 'not good enough' mentality that exists within consumers today, this has conditioned normal everyday consumers into unreasonable arseholes, be thankful you don't work in retail sales, there are even more of them posing as customers there
Whatever happened to treating people the way you would like to be treated yourself? Comments (3)
Agreed.
It's pretty pathetic actually. People seem to have less and less empathy as time goes by. People need to "walk a mile in another person's shoes" to gain a little perspective... ...Although I don't think any of this would have helped the person who's suggestion it was! They are beyond help! Comment (1)
"The customer isn't always right - in this case, as with so many others, the customer is totally wrong. "
Do you mind if I quote you on this, frame it, and hang it in my office? It is perfectly relevant for the construction industry as well. Comment (1)
Developing in Australia? LOL
I have had the pleasure of living in 3 different states and have travelled extensively throughout the whole country over the past 40 years. I can say unequivocally that threats and loud voices has always been part of the Australian way haha Like yourself my belief is that collectively we all have a responsibility to stamp on it whenever we encounter it. Be reasonable and ask for a break & get assistance as far as humanly possible. Make threats and try to stir up trouble and you get F all and shown the door. Now that should be the Australian way! Comment (1)
"The customer isn't always right - in this case, as with so many others, the customer is totally wrong. "
Hehe, that reminded me of years ago when I did a customer service course for the NAB. Their moto though was The customer isn't always right, but the customer is still the customer. Meaning bend over backwards even if they are complete jerks. I like Exetel's no nonsense attitude. Comment (1)
Note to self. Don't talk to John in the morning .
Too funny. The guy is still swearing he didn't type in the wrong numbers. Comment (1)
Then the guy should go out and buy a lottery ticket - he just got four trillion to one shots home in a row.
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I believe it's also possible his bank had not accepted the CVV number entered due to an issue their side.
- A new card issued, but the old card CVV was being validated by the bank (for whatever reason). - Card not activated completely? However, no one but him, and the bank are in a position to confirm / deny that. Comments (2)
...unless you assume that a major bank's software can make four data transmission errors in succession....
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Both of those scenarios are impossible.
A card either has a complete record or does not have one at all. The CVV isn't stored anywhere by any issuer or acquirer. It's actually a hash of the card number, expiry date and an issuer-specific secret value using a hash function prescribed by the relevant card scheme. Comments (5)
"How do you deal with a person who is so irrational as to make such a claim - and why on Earth would they do it?"
Later question was answered in your quote of the customers demands... "If I don't receive a full refund of my $40 and re-connection to the internet" So what can you do? Withdraw your products and services from sale. You're trying to operate a business, nothing is free. That would be the only problem with suggestion boxes... when idiots use them. Comment (1)
I don't disagree with you approach john as I too am not a fan of the agressive/arrogant approach to problem solving, but I must admit I don't get why a real time check (even a pre-auth if that was needed) couldn't be done on the card # and CVC. I wasn't aware that there was a charge for these transactions if they fail. Ironically, as far as I know (at least it was the case last time I checked), the banks don't actually require a CVC but will check it (and it needs to be right) if its supplied. Of course its best practice to accept it on your site for fraud minimisation purposes.
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The real time check is performed - which is why the card was rejected.
The bank insists on the CVC. There are no bank charges - Exetel imposes a charge if the customer's card fails as that, inevitably, ends up with a lot of time being wasted as in this instance. Comments (11)
The CCV2 is an algoritm or similar that just verifies the card number is real and not some random typing in crap.
I signed up for Exetel yesterday once the issue with provisioning was resolved, it accepted my card no issues... Comment (1)
This guy is now spamming all his email contacts with a letter bitching about Exetel; unfortunately, I'm one of them. Having read his account and yours, I vote for yours - "obviously we didn't make a mistake" ????? Sheesh....
I'm assuming you have number portability in Oz so he can take his number with him. If not, sawing him off at the knees was perhaps a bit on the harsh side. But I guess you (and any other company) aren't obliged to do business with anyone you don't want to deal with, something that customers often forget. Comment (1)
He can take his number and be set up with anothe Optus ADSL2 reseller in a couple of days.
It solves his problem with Exetel's "flawed" financial systems. Comments (11)
Please let us know how much Exetel's sales jump by as a result of this brilliantly conceived marketing plan ...
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Yesterday's sales were up around 20% on an average Thursday.
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Did this guy post an entry in the forum or, heaven forbid, send an email to support asking politely for someone to take a look? Sheesh...
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No.
Just sent his threatening email to Exetel's directors. Comments (11)
>>JL: Exetel imposes a charge if the customer's card fails as that, inevitably, ends up with a lot of time being wasted as in this instance.
Sorry if I am missing something but I still don't get it. If this is done in real time when the customer is still on the site wouldn't this just be part of the data entry validation. i.e. customer enters card details including CVC. Check done with bank which confirms CVC is not correct. Customer gets error message, re-enters data and transaction goes through. How could this result in time wasted for exetel, is it not pure self service? Sorry if I am missing something basic (which considering I haven't been through the process recently I could easily be) In anycase I sent this blog entry to a colleague and he promptly wanted to move to exetel, so you must be doing something right Comment (1)
We actually seldom impose any charge because there aren't many people like the person who couldn't enter their card number correctly.
What the charge is about is that to reach the portal their card has already failed when we bulk process the billing. This triggers a suspension of the service and the automatic direction to the live payment page. The $10.00 penalty is a warning not to proceed unless they know there is money to honour the debit. Dealing with credit defaults (around 800 a month) is a full time job for one person and we recover that salary/overhead cost by this method. Thank you for interesting another person to become an Exetel customer. Comments (11)
Voted for you.
Don't take him back. There are some poeple who are never happy. Thanks for the cheap and reliable service. al Comment (1)
JL You are the man! I'm an exetel customer and top service mate. Kudos for telling this douche to harden the F up! lol
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